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The MoneyPot LIVE: Accelerating Innovation and Building the Bridge for Startups with Mandiri Capital Indonesia
Unlock the secrets behind transformative investments in this episode recorded live from Money2020 Asia 2024 in Bangkok! Join our hosts, Scarlett Sieber and Sheryl Chen, as we chat with Dennis Pratistha, the Chief Investment Officer at Mandiri Capital Indonesia (MCI), who takes us through MCI's captivating journey from its founding in 2015 to becoming a powerhouse in digital transformation and venture capital. Discover how MCI has innovatively merged corporate venture capital with independent venture capital, underpinned by strategic pillars like business matchmaking, business acceleration, and extensive networking. Dennis sheds light on how MCI's unique structure has fueled remarkable growth and value creation in the financial services sector.
Get ready to be inspired by MCI's approach to investing in founders who demonstrate competence, integrity, and perseverance. Dennis offers invaluable advice on the perfect timing for startups to seek investment, ideally after achieving product-market fit and revenue generation. Learn about the robust support system MCI offers through strategic introductions and business matchmaking, bolstered by their six-week business acceleration program. Additionally, dive into MCI's initiatives in the climate tech ecosystem, leveraging insights from Australia's advanced experience to drive sustainable development. This episode is a treasure trove of real-world case studies and success stories that highlight MCI's commitment to innovation and environmental sustainability.
Hosts: Scarlett Sieber, Chief Strategy & Growth Officer, Money20/20
Sheryl Chen, Head of Content, Money2020 Asia
Guest: Dennis Pratistha, Chief Investment Officer, Mandiri Capital of Indonesia
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Welcome to The Money Pot. I am Sheryl Chen, Head of Content at Money2020 Asia. We are live today at The Money Pot booth at Money2020 Asia 2024. With me today I have Scarlett Sieber, Chief Strategy and Growth Officer at Money2020. Hello, Scarlett.
Scarlett Sieber:I have to say, Sheryl, I have to say Sheryl, I have never co-hosted with you before, and it is quite an honor.
Sheryl Chen:No, it is my honor. How is everything? How has the conference? How has the show been for you?
Scarlett Sieber:It's been amazing. This is our first time coming to Bangkok. Dennis, we were just catching up. Before going online. We prioritize destination cities Las Vegas, Amsterdam, and Bangkok is a perfect addition to that mix, so it's been a lot of fun.
Sheryl Chen:It's fantastic and today on our show we have Dennis Pratistha, Chief Investment Officer at Mandiri Capital Indonesia. Welcome.
Dennis Pratistha:Dennis. Thank you, Cheryl Scarlett, for having us. I mean it's great to be here. Events so far. This is the third day right. It's been very enjoyable. We met a lot of great contacts here at Money 2020.
Sheryl Chen:It's fantastic.
Scarlett Sieber:So can I call it MCI, or would you prefer for me to say Mandiri?
Dennis Pratistha:No, MCI is good.
Scarlett Sieber:Okay. So over the last few weeks, few months, I've been spending time with Debbie because I was so excited when she said, hey, I got a CBC that's looking at the show. I said I want to get involved. What's going on? I've been so impressed with the depth and breadth that MCI covers. My first question is and there's a bit of static here so why did Mandiri create MCI and what is your mission?
Dennis Pratistha:Okay, that's a very good question. Let me give you a bit of a context. So Mandiri Capital Indonesia MCI we were established in 2015 and started operations in 2016. So initially we were the hub of innovation right for Monday Regroup as a whole. At that time they were undergoing a digital transformation process. Fast forward to now. They're very successful doing that. You know, we've got the largest financial services super application with over 21 million active users. We've got one of the biggest offline to online merchants platform which targets micro, small and medium size merchants. We've got 2 million active merchants so far on that. And, of course, we've got one of the biggest digital platforms for large corporations. So it's a supply chain kind of platform. So we were very much involved in that, in the digital transformation process. And then over the years we transformed. We became a CBC, we had our balance sheet fund and started last year we launched our own fund to become more of an independent VC essentially. So we fundraised through third-party money LPs.
Scarlett Sieber:So in your role as chief investment officer, that's quite a lofty title. What does that mean? What does that mean for MCI? What is your remit? What do you cover?
Dennis Pratistha:So CVCs, vcs they tend to be quite small, right, quite intimate, you say. So basically I'm in charge of running the entire business, of whatever happens in money capital amnesia. Of course you've got the business function if you've got the support function right. So I handle business within the business. What I oversee, of course we've got the venture funds. We've got three funds up and running within the venture funds besides our balance sheet. So balance sheet will be the fourth one. And of course we've got the value creation initiative. I'll share a bit about that later on. Mci is a strategic investor. We're not a financial investor. So of course our strategic initiative, our value creation initiative, is our strategic initiative essentially. And on top of that we've got the balance sheet fund right. Investment happens there. So I oversee venture fund, value creation and the balance sheet.
Scarlett Sieber:Amazing Cheryl.
Sheryl Chen:So, Dennis, as you mentioned, MCI was established in 2015. And since then you have 23 portfolio companies. So this size of podcast tells me that you guys obviously make very concentrated and high conviction investments. So could you tell us a little bit more about your deal sourcing and due diligence process?
Dennis Pratistha:Very good question. So, yes, since 2015-16, actually we've invested in 26 companies, but we've divested quite a bit, and very good divestment. So our early stage fund is up to 1.4 in our DPI, which is quite significant, right. So when our strategy, our strategy look, as I mentioned to you, we have a value creation initiative. So our value creation initiative revolves around three pillars. So you've got the business matchmaking revolves around three pillars. So you've got the business matchmaking, which essentially introduce startups, tech companies, to big corporations, right With the output, identifying business opportunities, mous, right. Of course, that doesn't generate revenues. And then we have the second pillar, which is business acceleration. With business acceleration, it takes what is defined in the first pillar, which is the business matchmaking. So, with business acceleration, it takes what is defined in the first pillar, which is the business matchmaking. So the business opportunities. Then we help our founders navigate the big corporations and to ensure they're able to acquire the business contracts. Business contracts help them with technology integration, with the output, of course, generating revenue.
Dennis Pratistha:And then the third one, of course, is networking. So, to answer your question, we use that the actual program initiative, as a pipeline for our deal sourcing, essentially. So that's one aspect we use for our deal sourcing. We use pipeline from our value creation initiative. We've got a lot of contacts. We've got a lot of contacts. Of course, they refer us a lot of deals. So other VCs, cvcs, iabs and our partners. So that's why we're here. We aim to always, you know, grow our partners, grow our network to be able to have better deal sourcing essentially. So that's essentially our deal sourcing strategy.
Scarlett Sieber:Let me chime in here, because I think the key things is always about the differentiation strategy. You talked about partners and the matchmaking. I'm a recovering ex-banker. I'm embarrassed to admit it, but maybe not embarrassed at all because there's so much opportunities there, of course, at Mandiri, but at your other partners as well, who have been some of the like. What are the parts of the org that have been most open to working with startups? Is it the innovation team? Is it the line of businesses? Is it the product team? Where have you seen the most success in Indonesia and more broadly across Asia, for your startups to start getting traction with these big corps?
Dennis Pratistha:Okay, that's a very good question. So what you're asking is how we're able to help our founders of the management team get into big corporations, right? So, of course, see, that's the thing with indonesia. Everything is a relationship game essentially. I mean, it's pretty much the same here in thailand and pretty much around asia. So it's a relationship game.
Dennis Pratistha:So the thing is, it doesn't really matter if most corporations, yes, they have an innovation team, they have whatever it is, digital transformation team, et cetera, et cetera. But it doesn't really matter where you start, right, because at the end of the day, you have to deepen your network, right With us. We start anywhere and then we deepen our network. We have to end up. The most important is to end up engaging with the users, right? So, for instance, if we're helping Carbon Accounting SAS, we helped them recently. So you know, the ideal users would be the ESG team within each corporation. So, of course, we can start with the digital transformation team or the innovation team, but at the end of the day, you have to get into the ESG team. So that's what we do. I mean, we have to navigate. We help our founders management team navigate large corporations. So you have to get to know everybody, essentially the users. They're the most important.
Sheryl Chen:So I just want to chime in here. So, dennis, when I was doing a bit of research on you, I saw that your LinkedIn you stated that you're a builder of scalable businesses that are investor-friendly. So every other VC in the region. They claim to be founder-friendly, but this was my first time seeing someone actively brand themselves as investor-friendly. So what does that mean? I heard also just now I picked up this little juicy little nugget saying that your DPI is 1.4, which is well above industry benchmarks. So what does that mean for you? Is it like generating fund returners, creating beautiful metrics for follow-on funds? What does that mean?
Dennis Pratistha:Okay, so, first and foremost, I started my career as an entrepreneur, so, naturally, I know what it's like to be an entrepreneur. You've got to treat them as partners, right? I started my career as an entrepreneur, blessed enough, lucky enough to be able to do several exits, so I started in 06. I ended in 15 and started getting into private equity, private equity, and now I'm here in vc. Right? So you know, for us, because I'm an ex-entrepreneur, I I want to make sure that we're partners, we're not just investors. If we invest, we're investors. We put in our money and sit on our hands. Right for us, we need to be engaging, we need to be able to assist them through their business. So that's why you know, of course, why I claim not really self-proclaimed but based on experience a builder, because I, I've built several businesses and of course, I'm I know how, what it's like to fundraise. So I have to be investor friendly, you know, with them and like, so I try to be in a position where you know, uh, where entrepreneurs are comfortable with us. So that's one aspect, right, you know. And, of course, why we want to do that? Because we, as you rightly mentioned, you know what is our goal, what is our aim as venture funds, as investors? Primary goal there's only one primary goal generate returns. Right, to be able to generate returns there are two factors. Factor number one is you grow the foundations of the business, the fundamentals of the business. And of course, number two are market multiples. But you can't control market multiples, you know. You see, for the past two years, winter, you know market multiples has depressed and of course you'll be crazy if you want to focus on the things you can't control. So for us, we believe in focusing the things that we can control, which is helping grow the fundamentals of the business. That's why we, our approach is to bring businesses to these guys. You know we invest in from early stage to sort of later growth.
Dennis Pratistha:If I may share a bit, just to give context. So we have funds for early stage, we have funds for early growth, we have funds for mid growth and then later growth. So we have a lot of pockets, right? So, having said that, I mean you know we have to be able to generate returns for these guys. It's injecting businesses For early-stage companies. These companies are maybe only doing annually a buck, right? So bringing businesses two, three, four, five bucks.
Dennis Pratistha:For us, since we're backed by huge ecosystems right, we're backed by the money ecosystem, the state-owned enterprise ecosystem We've got a lot of funds. It's not something that's difficult for us to do. So imagine you know a company that's doing annually a buck in business and then we bring them another two, three, four, five bucks. That's already a huge impact to the business and that's helping them grow the fundamentals of the business. And to the other extent, to the extreme, we invest in later growth, not later stage, but later growth. Later growth means what? In Indonesia it's around 20 bucks worth of business annually and again bringing over five bucks, 10 bucks worth of business is already increasing their business size quite significantly. So that's why we focus on that aspect. We focus on bringing business because essentially, we're building their business. We're helping them build their business, grow their business, which generates returns.
Scarlett Sieber:So that's really fascinating, and you talked about going from all life cycles For early stage. What is the typical check size that you start with?
Dennis Pratistha:So early stage we do so our early stage fund. We have a pre-C, c, pre-A, a. Usually for a first investment we stop at A, but we can do follow-on up to B. In our first fund that typical check size is between $500 to $1.50, right. And then we've got our early growth and mid-growth. Typical size is around $1.50, one and a half bucks up to six bucks. And then we've got our later growth where a typical check size would be between 20 to 25 bucks, right. So essentially I mean we cover the entire spectrum.
Scarlett Sieber:Very helpful. So I did not know what we were doing the research, but I didn't know that you were. You said ex-entrepreneur. I would also use the word recovering entrepreneur, because I did that too. We have a lot of startups here. I think it's so helpful that you have been on the journey and felt that. So two part question. The first is you've seen this a lot. You've invested in a lot of companies. Are there patterns of behaviors or characteristics about successful founders? And then the second question is when is the right time to approach MCI? So for the founders who are going to be listening to this now, the next few days, next few weeks, next few months, when should they reach out to MCI and how do they do that?
Dennis Pratistha:Okay, I'll answer the second part first. So when, when should they approach us? Look, even when they come in early, we rather they've already done an actual product market fit, right. So that's the earliest. When you've got a product market fit, when you know that, you know you can generate revenues from this, then that's where, ideally, they should come and approach us. So so that's the earliest. And then, of course, following that, anytime, if you're a digital revenue, even better. You've got a great product. You can scale even better.
Dennis Pratistha:If you want to find businesses, if you want someone to handhold you and help you grow your business, then come to us, because that's what we do, that's what we do best, essentially. So that's the second part of your question. And, of course, character traits. There are a lot of character traits for entrepreneurs, right, of course, when we look at businesses, we follow the BMP kind of approach, right? Bmp, meaning we look at the business, we look at the management, founders, right. And of course, we're an investor. We look. We look at price definitely we won't invest when it's too high.
Dennis Pratistha:But going back to the founders itself, look, so many character traits. But we have to have a look at their experience, right. How competent are they in that particular business. Look, if you know they're a seasoned player in agriculture and then suddenly they want to invest in Gen AI or start doing Gen AI, definitely they might be a very experienced and competent entrepreneur, but they're not experienced at all in Gen AI. So we'd rather invest in people, in founders, that are competent within what they do within the business. That's one.
Dennis Pratistha:Of course, we have to have a look at the integrity. You know, basically the track record, essentially right. What have they done? Have have they been business before? We prefer someone has great working experience strategically or has a business before right, so and so and besides that, the standard trait. If you look at the integrity, of course we ask we do a lot of background checks, right, and perseverance. You know how determined are they and then you can do this by having a lot of lunches, dinners, coffees, drinks with them. So basically, that's the core of what we look at when it comes to people.
Sheryl Chen:The best time to so? Scarlett, you also mentioned when is the best time for.
Dennis Pratistha:I answered that first, Actually.
Sheryl Chen:Dennis, I wanted to ask you a bit more about because there is this it is very hard to do business in indonesia if you're not already attuned in the local ecosystem because, as you mentioned, everything is so relationship driven right and because you have a huge backing of mandiri and then also a couple of other conglomerates. Could you maybe share more about how you enable startups within your network to get them plugged in, to set them up for success?
Dennis Pratistha:Sure, I mean, that's actually what we do. So our value prop is helping founders, management, navigate corporations, big corporations and et cetera. So, as I mentioned to you, right, you know, we are the biggest bank by assets in Indonesia. We are the fourth largest state-owned enterprise company in Indonesia, so we're backed up by state-owned. State-owned is still very big in Indonesia, right? So we're backed up by state-owned. We're backed up by the Mandiri.
Dennis Pratistha:So meaning we have huge ecosystems and on top of this, of course, we collaborate with other private corporations as well, so we have huge network how we help them out, basically relationship. We introduce them to who they need to know. So it's different with each business, right? Some wants to get to know people within the telco companies in Indonesia, so we help navigate them. If they're focused on billing, for instance, of course we introduce them not only to the procurement team but also to the finance department, et cetera. So it's pretty much customized, it's pretty much tailored how we can introduce them and bring them to the right people. But on top of that, as I mentioned, we also have the formal framework, which is the value creation initiative that I mentioned. That revolves around three pillars. So it's called our xyz event. So the x is for the business matchmaking, the y is for networking and the z as the business acceleration.
Scarlett Sieber:So, on the business acceleration, when we were talking offline, it was actually a formal program that you have. Yes, that goes through four months. Can you just talk a little bit more about what that is?
Dennis Pratistha:So, as I mentioned right so business acceleration moves after the business matchmaking. Business matchmaking identifies business opportunities and ensures that the guys that are involved in the program, they get MOUs right. So, moving from there from the business opportunities and MOUs, the participants, the applicants, the guys that are joining the event we then bring them over to the respective businesses and help them navigate those companies to ensure that they get business agreements. That's one aspect. That's the program for us. So it's a six-week program and of course, they also get a lot of coaching and whatnot. The coaching revolves around how to get business contracts, how to ensure there's a product market fit and you can really scale your whether it's product, services and business essentially not only in that particular company that they're targeting, but across the board, essentially. So it's a six-week program coaching and helping them navigate respective businesses to ensure that when they graduate from the program they get business contracts. They have business contracts.
Scarlett Sieber:I think we should move into sustainability, because one of the things that we've seen at our other shows obviously when we were talking offline, dennis, in the other key geographies sustainability is a really especially in our Europe show, a really hot topic and people care a lot about it. So, cheryl, do you want to talk a little bit more about that?
Sheryl Chen:So, dennis, I saw that in November 2023 last year, you successfully launched your Mandiri Investable Global Climate Tech Fund and within that, your key areas of strategic geographic regions for deployment are Southeast Asia and Oceania, and within that, 30% of your investments will be made in Indonesia. So could you tell us more about the impact you are going to achieve with that fund?
Dennis Pratistha:Okay, so to give you a bit of a background, so, as I mentioned, we were established in 2015-16. During that period, that was when Indonesia was forming its digital tech ecosystem and we were part of that. We were part of the journey in growing the digital tech ecosystem in Indonesia. So what we decided to do? Hey, look, you know, climate Climate is an issue. It's been an issue for a few decades, but in Indonesia it's only been a recent focus.
Dennis Pratistha:And we thought, hey, we were experienced, we have the framework to help grow the digital tech ecosystem. Then why not help governments across Southeast Asia grow their climate tech ecosystem, right? So we decided, hey, let's replicate the same approach and customize it slightly to jumpstart the climate tech ecosystem. And we decided look, you know, as I mentioned, indonesia is still quite nascent when it comes to the climate tech ecosystem. And we decided, look, you know, as I mentioned, in Indonesia it's still quite nascent when it comes to the climate tech ecosystem, but when we look at our neighbor, australia, they're more advanced.
Dennis Pratistha:They've been doing this for the past two decades. So, you know, they've got over two decades experience. Why not tap into their knowledge, their technology, their experience, invest in companies there, look at technologies there and then bring them over not only to Indonesia but Southeast Asia, with the aim of jump-starting and building the climate tech ecosystem. So, of course, once this forms up again, it's like the digital side People will start jumping into the opportunities and this will spearhead, fast, expedite the growth of climate tech initiatives in our respective countries across Southeast Asia. So, as you mentioned, yes, the idea is to invest in Australia and all countries within Southeast Asia and, of course, bring knowledge, technology and experience to the respective countries and share it across. So the goal, when you ask what is the actual goal, the actual goal is actually just to jumpstart the climate tech ecosystem.
Scarlett Sieber:So it'll become I think one of the things that's so nice about what you talked about there and it's now been a theme. We're on day three of the show and we've had some of the regulators all over Asia, southeast Asia, we've had all the FinTech Association, cheryl, and one of the things that we're really seeing is about that cross-geographic collaboration, basically, and how do we do things better together, learn what Indonesia does really well, learn what Australia does really well, china, and how do we do things better together learn what Indonesia does really well, learn what Australia does really well, china, everyone else and so I think that's an awesome example. So, as we just get wrapping up here, last question, dennis you have the world of money, of course, with the focus on APAC here and Money 2020 Asia. What else would you like them to know about MCI? What else would you?
Dennis Pratistha:like them to know about MCI. Simple With us, we focus on collaboration, forming collaboration. We are all about establishing partnership so we can collaborate together. Look, you know, it's not about conquering the world anymore. It's about having shared experiences, partnering up to make the world a better place. So that's what we're all about. We want people to know that we're open to establish partnerships and I'm very confident we can partner up with anybody and everybody across this spectrum, across industries. Again, our DNA, you know, at the heart of commerce, it's all about payments and lending. We're part of a bank. That's our DNA. So we can contribute. We can partner up with everybody that wants to. You know, make the world a better place, that's what climate is all about. That's what you know. Un with, that's what climate is all about. That's what UN, with their SDG program, is all about. So that's the message that I'd like to push across.
Scarlett Sieber:It's a beautiful message.
Sheryl Chen:It is Okay. So actually, dennis, I wanted to zero in on the particular case studies and the startups that you've been seeing, especially in Indonesia, because the last time I went, it was extremely polluted the air quality in Jakarta. I think we all know how the air quality is like. So what cases of climate tech have you been seeing recently?
Dennis Pratistha:Okay, maybe to give you a brief background. Okay, maybe to give you a brief background, our fund focuses on the six UNEP defined industries. Right, you've got your industries, you've got your energy, you've got your transport, you've got your agri, you've got your forest and land use, you've got your cities right. So, but to answer your question, in indonesia lately I've been excited and had a lot of opportunities to look at circular economy, right, the circular economy sector. You know, I've been visiting a lot of waste dumps, and I mean a lot of waste dumps. So a lot of these guys, of course, they sort through the waste and they basically categorize the different types of plastics. For instance, you've got six, seven levels, seven different plastics. You sort that out and then you've got different types of waste, which is paper and et cetera, and even wood waste. So I've been following several companies that have been doing a lot of plastic recycling, for instance, and what they do is they upcycle, they produce eco-planks. That's one that I saw which is very exciting to me. I also looked at another company that just focuses on the sorting and they sell whatever they sort to different recycling companies, which is to either, you know, if they they can, if they manage to find a lot of uh, reused sorry, recycled water bottles. They sell it back to companies that produces recycled water bottles. So this is a sorting company. I went to another company that was doing wood waste. So from that wood waste they process it and they produce wood pallets, which is a complementary or replacement to coal, essentially. On top of that we've been looking at carbon accounting companies and how they interact with the carbon projects so they become the marketplace for carbon projects to buy carbon credits, essentially.
Dennis Pratistha:And also we've looked at a lot of agriculture technologies, aquaculture technologies Particularly. That I like to mention is that you know, we looked at a particular one that is trying to increase threefold the productivity of shrimp farming Very interesting. I mean it's a combination of not only just technology but it's biotech as well. They've got the supplements, they've got the different feeds, et cetera, et cetera. So I mean there's a lot of opportunities.
Dennis Pratistha:That's just Indonesia, that's just scratching the surface of Indonesia. I'm pretty sure there's a lot more opportunities in Indonesia. But if you look at companies like in Australia that we believe would be suitable for Indonesia, even Thailand battery processing companies you know right now everyone Thailand battery processing companies. You know right now everyone's shifting over to EV, so we have to think about on how to be able to process recycled batteries right. So I looked at several companies actually in Australia that does different aspects of battery recycling. One is to ensure that the waste is handled appropriately so it's not to contaminate. Another is to extract these batteries and reuse what can be reused and these kind of things essentially, and even battery-coated materials, tech and et cetera. So I mean there's a lot of opportunities that I've looked at and it's very exciting. It's something very new but very exciting.
Sheryl Chen:So I think also something else that is the beauty of having a regional fund right is that you extract all these lessons from all the different countries in the region, which are very unique, but also there's a lot of cross-pollination of lessons and ideas, and you've previously also mentioned that Indonesia they are starting to get acquainted with the idea of climate tech, and then countries like Australia, for example, they have already been very, they are already very familiar. So what are some lessons that you think that Indonesia can learn from someone like Australia?
Dennis Pratistha:It's. Different countries have their different needs, specifically for climate tech, right, but of course, there are a lot of overlaps, a lot of overlaps that can be shared. For instance, waste processing, waste management. Everyone, all countries, needs it and definitely we can look at what what australia has been doing and how they process their waste and etc. So, to ensure you know, waste is a significant issue. It's a big issue everywhere around the world.
Dennis Pratistha:So we want to learn how we can process waste better to ensure that we're not filling up landfills and polluting the earth. That's one aspect that we can learn. So, essentially, you look at the overlaps and you try to look at the best practices in each of the countries that we cover.
Sheryl Chen:Actually this is the second time you mentioned circular economy. I recently read an article on the circular economy and actually in particular it was for the luxury market and we were talking about reselling and then also reducing waste. So it just made me realize and also actively as a consumer, to try and purchase less so that we can do better for our environment and also make active choices not to purchase fast fashion items, for example, so things that will eventually go out of style very quickly, they don't end up in the landfills. So I think it's very admirable, like this entire circular ecosystem thing.
Dennis Pratistha:Exactly exactly. So what I like to convey always to to my mates right, you know, reduce what you use. Right you, you ensure that you know you recycle what you use, you choose what you buy and be sustainable. Essentially right, because if you reduce the what you buy, the unnecessary things that you don't need, then of course you'll be, as you mentioned, fast fashion. They go out of fashion very quickly, so buy classic ones and you know you can reuse over and over again. You end up becoming more sustainable, more responsible yes, sustainability is a lifestyle exactly, exactly and I think with that we can wrap this episode up.
Sheryl Chen:So that is it for this episode of the Money Pot. We want to thank Dennis for gracing our show today. You can be part of the Money Pot at the Money 2020 Show. Please send us pitches to podcast at money2020.com and don't forget to follow us wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for listening. We love our FinTech nerds.
