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The MoneyPot LIVE: Resilient Recovery in Fintech: Philippe Morel on Steering Railsr Through Crisis at Money 2020
Discover the remarkable story of survival and growth in the ever-evolving world of fintech. In this compelling episode of The Money Pot, we sit down with Philippe Morel, the CEO of Railsr, who shares his firsthand experience of steering the company through turbulent waters. You'll learn how the fintech powerhouse bounced back from the brink of collapse, navigating regulatory pressures and funding challenges, to secure new investment and maintain market confidence. Gain insights into the critical decisions and strategic moves that ensured their survival and set the stage for future expansion.
Join hosts Ian Horne and Mickey Tesfaye live from Money 2020 in Amsterdam as they unpack the pivotal moments in Railsr's turnaround. Philippe opens up about the importance of transparent communication within the team and the indispensable role of robust technology in earning and retaining customer trust. With an insider's perspective, the discussion highlights the burgeoning field of B2B embedded finance, providing a behind-the-scenes look at how Railsr managed to maintain strong client relationships despite facing significant internal and external pressures.
As we explore the future landscape of fintech, Philippe sheds light on the transformative potential of embedded finance and the revolution it heralds for financial services. He shares strategies for managing cash burn, leveraging customer feedback, and maintaining a balance between bold aspirations and practical financial management. This episode is packed with valuable lessons for fintech professionals and business leaders alike, emphasizing the crucial role of transparency and the power of a resilient, customer-focused approach in navigating the industry's challenges. Tune in for an inspiring conversation that underscores the strength of strategic rebuilding and the importance of staying attuned to market needs.
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Welcome to the Money Pot. I'm Ian Horne, the EU Head of Content at Money 2020. I'm with my colleague, the inimitable Mickey Tesfaye, our content manager and a great guy all around. We're broadcasting live from Money 2020 at the Rye in Amsterdam and, wow, it is a pleasure to be here. So much going on, so much life on these stages that we've got going on. So this show is all about powerful stories and leaving you with ideas on how to strap a rocket to your business and your professional development, and today we have a story that I think is going to do that, while covering some hard truths, perhaps along the line. First, mickey, good to have you here, thank you, Ian how are you getting on today?
Mickey Tesfaye:uh, it's been. This is how I like to say I know I've had a good day, because my feet hurt a lot already. You know that's so true, but it's been brilliant. Uh, I've just we. I love coming to the show because you meet new people. You meet people you've known a long time, and I think we've also discovered something really important at money 2020 recently, which you actually helped me realize, which is that, if you want to do something really beautiful and stunning, think about trees, because we could see the nature stage, which looks beautiful, stunning, and I think it's a great analogy for our conversation today and our wonderful guest who is Philip from Railza.
Mickey Tesfaye:And it's a great analogy because, of course, nothing like nature is as regenerative, and so I think I kind of see where you're going with this, mickey.
Ian Horne:I mean, yeah, let's introduce Philippe, of course. Philippe, you have a story to tell. Obviously, railza has a story to tell and you know, you're the CEO there, and the on-the-ra rails puns obviously wrote themselves. When Rails appeared to be on the verge of collapse last year, you went into bankruptcy protection, but things have turned around since. You managed to achieve funding, and you did so rather emphatically. I want to get into that story, but first Philippe, hi, welcome to the Moneypot. How are you doing? Thank you very much, I'm doing fantastic.
Philippe Morel:I mean, the level of energy at Money 2020 is amazing and, as you said, seeing so many colleagues and clients and suppliers as well is a great opportunity. I mean, I haven't seen so many opportunities in just a few days in one place. So, I'm a big big supporter.
Ian Horne:Yeah, we're going to use that in the marketing for a little bit.
Philippe Morel:I take royalties as well.
Mickey Tesfaye:We like to hear that.
Ian Horne:Okay. Well, let's get straight into your story. I could ask you a million and one things, but could you just provide the background? So what happened with Rails last year that led to the issues you found yourself in?
Philippe Morel:Yeah. So look, rails was in a fantastic position from a tech and market perspective, and I think to the question you're going to ask me, why did we get funding? It's because the underlying assets were exceptional Technology platform is exceptional, customers really strong, very strong sales team as well. Now, unfortunately, the landscape's changed quite dramatically in a few years. The level of investment requested in compliance, in customer support, and it was just without any comparison with what it was only a few months before, and so I think the company went ahead of itself been growing very, very fast, which was a tribute to the interest in the market, but wasn't perhaps sufficiently careful about its cost base and to what the regulator was expecting, and so it all blew up when the funding market dried up somewhere in 2022 and the company had to go through restructuring, and so my nice story is I arrived just after that fact and I could just pick up the bits and pieces and realize that there were actually a number of very nice bits and pieces that we could work from.
Mickey Tesfaye:Let me just come in real quickly there, just to give a bit of context to folks that might have not heard of the story. Fully, rail rouser is an embedded finance platform. Right, that is the kind of core business and the core technology that you guys provide and, um, that is that business is still the core part of what you're doing. Still, right absolutely.
Philippe Morel:We do banking as a service, car as a service. Uh, we're adding compliance as a service as well, because it's so important those days. But the business model and the target customers haven't changed. What has changed, of course, is the way we do our business now.
Mickey Tesfaye:Great. So I guess I want to kind of touch on and I think we're going to talk a lot about the here and the now and the future, but I want us to take a step back and think about what happened, right? So you touched on a couple of points. Um, it sounded like the business was slightly um overstretched, obviously, um, the dynamics in the market changed fairly quickly and I think rouser is not the only one. Actually, a number of huge, huge financial institutions had issues as a result of that sv, svb, credit Suisse all of these big financial institutions are bust, but we've also seen embedded finance in the US having a bit of a moment right now. How much of that Rouser story in the past was a company-specific issue and how much of it was industry or ecosystem issue.
Philippe Morel:Well, I think we all went through the same issues, which was the market went from supporting giving free money, essentially to grow, to oops, not anymore. Yeah, all at the same time, and so I think Realza was on the way to become a unicorn 1 billion valuation and then funding dried up. And when funding dries up and you're not profitable, then you run into trouble, which is what happened to Relza, in addition to a number of issues that we found out when we took over.
Ian Horne:Yeah, I mean it sounds like classic overconfidence and actually when you were talking before, you were always saying, oh, we were too good, we grew too quickly, which is a classic CEO answer, and I rate it. But at the same time, yeah, something was wrong there. If people are just expecting that you're going to keep getting funding, did you have something to put right there when you came in?
Philippe Morel:First thing I had to do is put costs under control. We had 300 employees. We now have 150. I reduced our suppliers' costs by 40%. So I think putting costs under control was the number one priority, together with refocusing our geography footprint. I mean, this business was in Singapore, in Australia, in the US, in Europe, in the UK. We said, well, let's stop it. Where is our revenue generated from? And it in the UK. We said, well, let's stop it. Where is the revenue generated from? And it was the UK. So we focused on the UK. So now we have a platform which I think is solid to grow from. But the shrinking was drastic and we had to do it in. You know, just in a few months.
Mickey Tesfaye:I mean the way you're explaining it. I mean, I bet it was a lot stressful than the way you're explaining it. And I guess I want to ask you a bit more of a personal question. For you, right, as a CEO, going into this role, how do you think about what to focus on? How do you think about your signal versus the noise, right when you're looking at this ecosystem?
Philippe Morel:Well, I think the priority has to be well three things. One is investors. They're giving you money. They are trusting you. You need to deliver what they want you to do and you need to be very transparent and clear about what you're going to achieve with that money. Second thing is the regulator, and I think we've been very, very lucky in the UK that the regulator decided to support the business and engage with us on a weekly basis to essentially take us through the remediation plan we had to go through. And the third thing is the employees, because it's a dramatic show for them. It's really hard. I could not promise at any step of the way that we would go out on the other side, but I promised I would be transparent and tell them exactly where we would be at each step of the way, and I think that was really appreciated. So if you establish this relationship of trust with your regulator, with your investors and with your employees, I think you are actually making the job easier for yourself later, even if you've got to bring up bad news.
Mickey Tesfaye:Yeah, it sounds like a bit of like a flywheel effect too. Right, where you're kind of yeah.
Ian Horne:Yeah, I was going to say one of the tough things that obviously the layoffs part did. Do you think the the team broadly understood why you took that decision?
Philippe Morel:Well, it's really about, um, company survival. So the choice is we either survive as a company or we all go down company or we all go down, yeah. So I think if you put it in a common goods almost uh, you know adam smith's way environment, then people understand that, uh, you are doing something which is not personal, it's not against any one of us. It's just the right thing to do. If you want those fantastic assets to continue and we're also doing it for our customers uh, I think a number of them been supporting us throughout the way continue to us, and the least you can do is guarantee that their platform is going to be available, their funds are going to be safeguarded and you continue being a good provider of embedded finance services for them.
Mickey Tesfaye:I think one of the things that's so important that you're touching on that's coming through is that that you know fintech moves so fast and there is a lot of learning to be done within the industry, and I think it sounds like there are times when the companies are tarred with a brush. That is not truly reflective of that business. I guess. For you, how are you when you're looking at a business like Rosa, where there's a lot had been negative press but, as you said, there's a goldmine in terms of the product, some of the business assets? What are the things that you do as a leader to kind of really engage your employees and really like drive that fire within them to, you know, to get to that best position again?
Philippe Morel:Well, I guess it's really insist on what's good in the business and, as I said, there are lots of very strong assets. Guess it's really insist on what's good in the business and, as I said, there are lots of very strong assets. And it's not just me saying it, it's our customers. When you ask them, they say your technology is fantastic, your brand's fantastic, your customer service is fantastic. Even the brand, I say, is fantastic.
Philippe Morel:Customers realize that, okay, there were a number of mistakes made on the financial side and on the compliance side, but overall the business really brings strong value versus larger banks or versus other embedded finance providers. And so building on this competitive advantage that we've been able to maintain throughout the period, I think really makes people understand that we've been able to maintain throughout the period. I think really makes people understand that we're here with a mission. We're here to bring value. We have a role in society which is making finance available for all businesses, essentially, and reaching parts that banks don't necessarily reach. And I can see it on a day-to-day basis because I'm now spending a lot of time with customers and I'm going to say the feedbacks are, for most of them, fantastic from that perspective. We bring them, you know, bank account under name their names, card account under their names and we do it in a, you know, effective, flexible manner and that's a big plus for them that allows them to do lots of stuff with their own business.
Mickey Tesfaye:Yeah, I mean that's fascinating and I just want to quickly touch on actually the business of what you're doing. So I was a little bit surprised. I was actually a little bit surprised today. I was. You know, I kind of overheard a conversation, so sorry for being so gossipy today. I was, um, you know, I kind of overheard a conversation, so sorry for being so gossipy, but I heard someone explaining, you know what one of the biggest trends and um, they they're seeing this year is, and they mentioned b2b embedded uh, embedded payment, embedded finance. How much of so? A couple, two questions, I guess. How much of the challenges rails are faced was actually partly because you are kind of very early into that b2B embedded finance space. And two, how much is that embedded finance piece growing at the moment? How much are you seeing folks really realizing the need to have solutions to start becoming a financial service company themselves?
Philippe Morel:We are all B2B finance. We started ahead of others. That's very true. We started, I think, seven years ago, so probably a bit early. So there's a notion of adoption, if you want.
Philippe Morel:My observation is the need, exactly as you say, of embedded finance goes now much beyond fintech, and I'm pleased to report that, among the two big contracts we have negotiated or are negotiating at the moment, none of them are fintechs, because they realize that what we're bringing them, their banks can do.
Philippe Morel:And don't take me wrong, I'm not shooting on banks or saying you know that's not right. I think each one of us have a right model and can bring value to end users. Those customers are banks' customers, but we can bring banking account and card account specifically designed for their needs, with functions that a bank would not be able to, you know, effectively deliver in the amount of time and with a flexibility and the cost that we're able to do. So I think it's all about B2B embedded finance. We're just scratching the surface. I read somewhere in a report that I think our industry combined must have less than 5% of I think I heard two, but let's say five of the banking payment fees taken as a whole. I think there's a long, long way to go, and our customers see it, and more and more customers see it as we become more famous, in a sense yeah, because we're famous.
Ian Horne:I think a big part of this conversation is around communication, isn't it? Because you've got a growing market and a valuable market and a company with what appears to be robust fundamentals. So there's two sides to this. I want to get into the investor conversations that you've had, but first the customers I mean you've just touched upon. You know working with, you know getting big contracts over the line. What did people want? You know were people worried about you going bust during all of this, and how did you reach out to people? How did you manage that comms effort?
Philippe Morel:well, I would say, uh, no customer has been losing money, so I think it's really important. So, yeah, you know, been safeguarding, uh, their money in the uk perfectly, um, so you know, otherwise, uh, we wouldn't be here. And then, um, I guess it's part of the game as well that if you're a fintech, you're therefore in a sector which itself is vulnerable and this kind of thing happens. But we took it very seriously from day one to make sure that quality of service, quality of the platform, quality of customer service, save adding of funds all this was perfectly in place, respected and we continue to deliver as well. And I must say this is a fantastic credit to the team I've been working with, because you can imagine going through a bankruptcy yourself and, at the same time, being able to deliver.
Philippe Morel:This quality of support is quite extraordinary. Now, it's true as well that, to your question on investors, because of the quality of support is quite extraordinary. Now, it's true as well that, to your question on investors, because of the quality of the assets, we attracted big money up front and that was one of the conditions. When I joined, I said I need sufficient money and sufficient cash flow to go through the remediation which we got, and if we didn't have this support, I don't think I'd be here today. I don't think Razza would be here today. But the investor's traction was, from day one, based on the quality of the assets and of the brand.
Ian Horne:Yeah, and I'm going to ask what is the action plan when you step in day one new CEO business in a very, very difficult moment, looking at the investor side of it, what was your plan of action?
Philippe Morel:Well, it all started on the burn. Cash burn is the only thing which matters when you've got investors and you're not in a cash-generating position. So the question was how to protect revenue. So contact customers, explain what you're going through, make sure that you maintain their customership and their revenue flow and, at the same time, drastically act on the cost. And I think we implemented the cost plan in less than six months. We made mistakes, of course we did, but I think the speed of execution was absolutely fundamental so that we could show to investors that we could be in an acceptable position from a cash burn perspective.
Mickey Tesfaye:I mean, I think one of the most important things you've said to my mind so far is just how much product matters. Right Like. Ultimately, if you do have a top level product, clients are willing to acknowledge errors made and are more understanding. I guess my question is, looking to the future a bit more in terms of embedded finance browser. Where are you looking to to take the story next right, you've had, you've spent the challenging six months rebuilding and you've got this now lean, start up, flash for cash, it sounds like, and ready to go. So where are you thinking? This is where the great opportunities are. Where are you really actively being excited by?
Philippe Morel:Yeah, well, the first really exciting thing is what happened to us on Friday, which is the regulator said you're good to go, so you can onboard customers again.
Mickey Tesfaye:So congratulations Thank you.
Philippe Morel:I think we're very, very pleased with that and I say we've been working very hard overall and with the regulator to get to this point. On this basis, look, if customers are coming back and revenue is coming back, I wouldn't say it's going to home run, but it's going to be really easy now in the sense that the platform is where it should be, the cost base is where it should be. Any revenue is going to be relative on the bottom line. So that's for the UK market. Almost as soon as I joined, we applied to a license in France so that we can passport into Europe.
Philippe Morel:I'd say UK and Europe go together. A number of our customers, in particular post-Brexit, are really interested in reselling their services in Europe. We're probably three months away from doing that and then we'll have a perfect platform, completely scalable across the two geographies. Now will we go farther, later Maybe, but the one thing we won't do is rush to the US or rush to Singapore or rush to Asia, because we know that we'll be spreading our resources thin and we don't want to do that.
Mickey Tesfaye:No, I think that makes a lot of sense. It's interesting that you are going Europe, not US, right? But I do want to ask you just your thoughts in terms of just what you're thinking about it. But banking as a service is going through a moment in the US too. Right Yesterday actually, we did an episode here with Jason Mik, who's been breaking a lot of the stories. How much of what you're seeing in that space there is, how much parallels are there with what happened with Rousa? There is a lot of CEOs there who might have been experiencing what Rousa went through. Is there any advice you'd give them too?
Philippe Morel:Well, I'd say it's really. I mean, the US is a huge market. It's probably 50% of the overall global market. Even more, europe in the UK is only 20% or 30%. So I think, on the one hand, there's a temptation to say it's so big there that we can roll out embedded finance quickly. The reality is, it all takes time.
Philippe Morel:There are well-entrenched competitors banking platforms, banks, processors which means that unless you really have a strong winning proposition in terms of tech and cash in the bank, it's going to be really tough. It's also a very competitive market and so I think that no real I mean, yes, the traditional fintech from the previous fintech revolution have emerged, so you're also fighting against a number of very strong names. So, yeah, it's a tough market to be in. So I'm not surprised that, even though there's a lot of capital in the US, that the number of CEOs expressed what they told you yesterday. So, overall, I'd say, look, as everywhere, there won't be many winners, there'll be many losers, and it's making sure that you control your cash burn and the quality of your services and the relationship with your customer to make sure that you're part of this. Uh winning, uh swing if you, if you yeah no that makes a lot of sense.
Ian Horne:Yeah, I was just gonna say like, obviously, one of the things we wanted to talk about today was adopting the, the hustle mindset, which is, you know, the way, way out of the, the kind of mess that you found yourself in. But it feels like this is an inflection point. Actually, do you, do you move on from that kind of approach now that you're getting regulated, now that you're looking to kind of expand cautiously but expand? Are you still in that hustle mindset, or is it something different now?
Philippe Morel:Well, I'd say there are things we're going to change and things we will not change, because we learned. I think we will continue being very cash conscious, very cost conscious. We'll continue supporting our customers. I mean, every single week I've got an email to the whole company how we're doing in terms of customer service. How many customers are waiting for an answer? How many customers are waiting for you know, support? How many transactions are being blocked by you know, some analysis or whatever, so that we always deliver the best quality of service?
Philippe Morel:The one thing I think we will probably change is we will selectively invest more on the front end and also on the product side. I think there's so much more that we can add to our product suite. Embedded Finance is a platform, if you will. It's a distribution platform. We can add credit, we can add insurance, we can add reward, we can add investment, we can add savings. So I've seen the quality of the products we can offer to our customers can be significantly increased and we're going to be going into this direction.
Philippe Morel:We're starting with FX. We've developed a fantastic FX product this week which we're going to be going into this direction. We're starting with FX. We've developed a fantastic FX product this week which we're releasing with NatWest, which is one of our key banks, and that I think is going to be a game changer. We're launching transaction monitoring as a service. So I'd say the goal is really to use all the investments we've made to add services so that we've made to add services, so that we increase the revenue generated with customers and the service we provide them.
Mickey Tesfaye:How strategic are you now being in terms of? Because I think one of the points again you touched on earlier on right was maybe one of the things you needed to do when you came in was be a bit more strategic in terms of where cash was being spent, be a bit more proactive and, again, strategic in terms of where, where you were placing your bets. Right now, as you're beginning to roll out products, expand your suit. How much has the culture and the drivers of you know what is required? How much of it? Your product suit is being determined by the customer need relative to what internally you you as a team are thinking about the ecosystem needs.
Philippe Morel:You know how much of it is it's a very good question, I think, uh, we are spending a lot of time with our customers. Uh, I'm spending myself a lot of time with customers and I always have the same series of questions for them, which is how are we performing? What's the quality of our service? How can we improve? What products are we not offering today that you'd like to see? And they came back to us and said we want FX and we want Europe. So we're delivering on those promises because they told us, not because I woke up one morning and say, oh, I'd love to have FX as a service or I'd love to be in Europe.
Mickey Tesfaye:Yeah, I think that's so fascinating because I think one of the big challenges that fintech has faced, I think, over recent years is that a lot of it has been on the potential and making realizing that potential is so hard Right, you know the kind of number of things that need to align to produce on the impact of.
Mickey Tesfaye:You know, the big trend we're talking about, or the big emerging ideas, is very heavy and very things have to come together really nicely and perfectly for a lot of things to work out there. You know, with embedded finance, with all, even with other emerging technologies, I guess it's interesting now that with the end of the zero interest rate period, the end of free capital, I think there's been a realignment in fintech where actually making money is really important again within the ecosystem. And I think, in a weird and about way. You know, your story is a really good story of what's happened to our industry as a whole and actually what we're seeing now is probably an industry that's emerging a lot more resilient and perhaps a lot less idealistic in terms of what we can achieve, but idealistic in terms of what we can aspire to at least.
Philippe Morel:Yeah, no, it's very true, and I would say, you know science. It's a bit sad because the whole you know bubble of ideas and was fantastic and I miss this sense of everything's possible and we're going to deliver and we're going to change the world. At the same time, you know it's back to reality and we're like contents are winning exactly well. I don't know if the contents are winning, but it's a finance team that's not making me money, no, and I think it's important right yeah, well, absolutely, but I take the point.
Ian Horne:What is there anything that's going on right now that does really excite you, though, in terms of the future, of embedded finance and also just things you might have seen at this show? Not that I'm trying to shamelessly plug our show, which I am doing. Um, yeah, what are you seeing right now that makes you think, wow, this is the future?
Philippe Morel:well, I think that, uh, most of the crisis is over now, so you've got the really strong actors uh staying here, and I spoke with a number of our competitors and and and uh suppliers as well, and we all know we are pulling in the same direction, which is making finance available to everyone, uh, through a b2b model. Yeah, and I think, uh I mean yes there are lots, lots of new things coming up. I mean on the QR code. I think it's interesting for all the acquiring business or all the A2A relationship, going bank to bank, not going through cards.
Philippe Morel:I think there was an interesting conversation earlier in one of the shows I attended to. So I think the technology keeps moving and that's going to enrich the platform that we represent with a number of our competitors, and I think the difference between now and before is we are now in a position to take advantage of this technology and make it available to our customers. So we'll keep this flexibility, we'll keep this proximity. We'll just enrich the offer and products that we're making available for them, and we're in a position to do so and, again, our market share is 5% 2%.
Mickey Tesfaye:A long way to go On that. I want to ask you a question. I guess, raoult, you said around seven years, so really very early on embedded finance. But I think many of us, or many people, kind of have the angela strange com um a16z prison presentation. Right in five years every company would be a fintech company and I think that is maybe like the kind of anchoring point for embedded finance and the opportunity. So let me put you on the spot how many years until every company becomes a financial services company, maybe even powered by relza?
Philippe Morel:I don't know if it's five years or 10 years, but I won't. I won't bet on this, but it will happen. I think finance is part of a any service any company has to offer. They sell products, goods, services and also sell finance. So I think the revolution is ongoing. I don't bet on when it will land, but it's absolutely moving on and I think we're part of this revolution and that's what really is exciting.
Mickey Tesfaye:That's a big change already in the way the fintech ecosystem is thinking, Burnt by that commitment to five years, now like in the future but you know're optimistic about it.
Ian Horne:I like that though no, me too, me too. Well, look, I, we're running out of time here, I think. What time for maybe one more question? And I I just want to get back to the core. You know theme here. You've gone through this. You know turbulent moment at railser. You've come out the other end of it. I'm wondering if people are listening to this that are going through something similar. Obviously wouldn't tell you if they were, but what advice have you got, having seen that play out and having gotten out of it, what would you pass on to another ceo out there?
Philippe Morel:well, I'd say, uh, if you're in this situation, it's all about cash. Honestly, it is uh, so it's whatever it takes to control your cash, burn and get resources off and then, at the same time, is maintain confidence in the market that you are doing the right things and explain what you're doing, and explain the plan and show that you're delivering. And, if anything, I think at the beginning we did not communicate enough, and that's perhaps the one thing I would if I were to do again, I'd do it differently be even more transparent on what the plan is, so that everybody at the table would understand it and continue to support it yeah, and what is the barrier to communicating enough?
Philippe Morel:is it time, time, it's just time, it's just, you know days of 24 hours yeah, uh, and, and you, you need to do this whole list of things that you need to do because you know it's mission critical, and then you forget to uh, you know, talk to your bank, talk to your supplier, talk to to your investor, and yeah, I think that's a bit the issue. The other thing is, I would say I have one key thing which really helped us is I have really senior people helping you out.
Philippe Morel:We previously had Rikki Sonsweet who was our chairman, and he's been bringing us enormously in terms of knowledge of the market and I absolutely cherish my conversations with them when it was really tough. Uh, lord hammond is now our chairman and same thing I'd say. The level of seniority and understanding of the business, uh is is absolutely fantastic. So we not everybody's got access to these kind of characters, but I would say, attracting the right experienced people at the table, even if you feel you're very experienced yourself, I think is key. I mean, more brain is always better.
Mickey Tesfaye:I mean, that's really important advice, and I think I know FinTech's young disruptors. But hey, there's a reason why experience counts, you know. So it's not just about being cool, it's about lasting a long time.
Philippe Morel:There's a bit of that right, so you need to have that right balance.
Ian Horne:Good summary being cool, it's about lasting a long time. There's a bit of that right. So you need to have that right balance. Good summary, yeah. Yeah, I mean for me I'm, I think, a lot of us about the power of your network, right, that's really big. But also the amount of times you mentioned cash burn. I think mickey called it when he said the accountants are winning. I think that's a really interesting point that we're at. But maybe we can start having crazy dreams five, six years from now. But we'll keep it sensible in this moment.
Philippe Morel:Yeah, be bold, but make sure you've got the cash.
Mickey Tesfaye:Yeah, be bold, but make sure you have the cash. But also, I think the most important thing for me anyway, philip, from our conversation and thank you for being so candid is that I know FinTech has an ecosystem. We have lots of players that are winning, but success is not linear and actually failure is failure only if you know you don't really get learn from it. And I think what you've said about as a leader, about communicating, acknowledging when mistakes are made, is such an important uh mindset because, as an industry, one thing fintech mustn't forget, I think and this is my personal view is that emerging out of like this wave, emerging out of 2008, there's so much pressure to be transparent and when we fail to do so, it becomes significantly worse.
Ian Horne:Yeah, Because that's the expectation we've created, so thank you so much for, yeah, thank you and we do have to cut it there. But Thank you and we do have to cut it there. But, philippe, thank you for joining us. As Mickey was saying, really candid interview. Great to get your perspective on Rails and the future as well. I think what's great about this is we talked about a difficult moment, but I think we have a better understanding of what the next few years look like too. So, everyone, thank you for listening. This has been the Money Pot. I've been Ian Horne. Mickey Testify has been Mickey Testify as
